tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post1949130899701641714..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: The Roma in Europe: Bigotry and Discriminationbobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-47561418488835528142013-03-31T12:58:02.412+01:002013-03-31T12:58:02.412+01:00Google translates "CIGANE =U= LOGORE" as...Google translates "CIGANE =U= LOGORE" as Serbian for "Gypsies to concentration camps". The evil stupidity of the human being never fails to amaze me. What is it about the Holocaust that it fires up the worst kind of imagination in people? How can anybody be so damned ignorant and pitiless? I recently read a quote from Norm Geras' blog that may explain it: <br /><br />"Nicholas frowned. He had done much evil to the Poles. To justify that evil he had to feel certain that all Poles were rascals, and he considered them to be such and hated them in proportion to the evil he had done them."<br /><br />http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2013/03/hated-in-proportion.html<br /><br />From what we read in this article, malevolent stupdity is indivisible. <br /><br /><br />The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-53723387746075785242013-03-30T04:34:15.476+00:002013-03-30T04:34:15.476+00:00CIGANE =U= LOGORE
CIGANE =U= LOGORE<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-83406042698313808212013-03-29T18:04:57.486+00:002013-03-29T18:04:57.486+00:00Thanks - and sorry not to respond sooner. I certa...Thanks - and sorry not to respond sooner. I certainly don't just want to target Eastern/Central European countries - and I suggested that the warning from the European Commission could be seen as sinister. It's a kind of collusion. SarahABUKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162666068166925393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-21056704857343465842013-03-28T17:24:31.997+00:002013-03-28T17:24:31.997+00:00Bob
sorry, I´m busy now and this needs a bit long...Bob<br /><br />sorry, I´m busy now and this needs a bit longer reply. Will get back to you asap<br /><br />curious Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-85714982089097412792013-03-28T15:37:23.399+00:002013-03-28T15:37:23.399+00:00Curious
1. Yes, the West deserves to share the bl...Curious<br /><br />1. Yes, the West deserves to share the blame. Clearly, the Western countries to which Eastern/Central European Roma want to go have displaced responsibility for keeping them out to the sending countries and are at fault here. That's surely implicit in Sarah's post, which highlights both Schengen. She perhaps should have mentioned that part of the context of Levant's rant was the Canadian government's placing of Hungary on a safe list, making it impossible for Roma from there to claim asylum in Canada. <br /><br />By the way, the Eurostat report last week showed that Serbia was the main sending country for asylum seekers in Europe. <br /><br />2. Poverty and lack of opportunities are factors as well as discrimination as such in driving Roma emigration. I wonder what other factors are part of the "more complicated" you point to?<br /><br />2. The Slovak school and its alleged big slum. The 2011 and 2001 censuses both said Medzilaborce has 600 Roma, 1% of the town's population, one of a dozen or so municipalities in the Republic with this size Roma population. <br /><br />While I can see a school in an area with a big and poor Roma population faces particular challenges, which it is easy for westerners to be glib about. And yes, we should talk about why slums exist in Europe. But I don't think the lunch segregation is acceptable on any basis.<br /><br /><br />3. I can't comment on the EU golf courses - I hate golf with a completely irrational passion, so am happy to sign up in condemning any funded by the EU! But I'm not sure how that relates to the issue at hand. <br /><br />-<br /><br />In sum, I don't think Sarah's post in the least stigmatises or singles out Eastern European countries for condemnation.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-29849435850169636752013-03-28T10:22:51.297+00:002013-03-28T10:22:51.297+00:00"Exit controls based on the
alleged or real b..."Exit controls based on the<br />alleged or real belonging to an ethnic group are discriminatory. "<br /><br />If you lot want to criticise such behaviour I suggest you start at home before you turn to some bashing of racist East Europeans. For it was the UK who used to run quite unprecedented "Spot the Gipsy" checkpoints by sending out its immigration officers who then prevented dark looking people from boarding their flights at Prague Airport years ago. It was because Britain tried to put deportation costs at airlines and they were trying to avoid it. Canada solved the same problem by simply re-implementing visa duty for all Czech citizens. Obviously, EU countries have no such tool. So when some small East European country tries to limit numbers of Roma leaving for the West you can bet that the reason is a strong diplomatic and economic pressure applied behind curtain by Western countries.<br /><br />Of course, another thing is the question "Why are Roma leaving Eastern Europe?". Nobody could deny existing racism ad discrimination in the place but the general image is a bit more complicated.<br /><br />It s for example a bit cheap to single out the mentioned Slovak school for separating some (sic!) Roma kids during meals. This school cares for kids from one of the largest Roma slums in the country, worse that you could find in many thirld world countries. It is very easy to shout "How dare they to discriminate those poor underdeveloped children!" I think we should rather discuss why such slums exist in Europe and what we could do about it. Especially now when, as one Czech blogger pointed out, EU is taking money away from Cyprus to pay for golf courses and wellness centres (aka "regional development") in the Czech Republic.<br /><br />curiousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-82795203097942837412013-03-26T15:02:02.817+00:002013-03-26T15:02:02.817+00:00This is what Sara AB wrote:
"He has recently...This is what Sara AB wrote:<br /><br />"He has recently apologised, but Roma activist Gina Csanyi-Robah suspects this may have been motivated by a wish to deflect hate crime charges."<br /><br />And then this:<br /><br />" but I still think it was an unpleasant rant and a delayed apology."<br /><br />It is a problem to me when I read someone so eager to make a point that they ignore context, background and plain English usage. There was no butting attempts by Levant but there was a very loud But from Sara AFTER she recognized that the matter is much more complex and that the reports and innuendos about good/bad faith by Csányi-Robah were not to be taken at face value.<br /><br />If you mean by "reading overmuch into Csányi-Robah's anti-Zionism." that she may be a willing pawn in a game whose history and rules she is not completely aware of, I agree with you. But a person purporting to represent one of the most persecuted minorities in the world should not be making so actively and volubly common cause with anti-Zionist organizations baying for more destruction of the Jews. It does not inspire me to respect her at all. To me she is more like that Roma leader who tried to curry favour with the Jobbik party by resorting to antisemitism. Levant pisses me because he forgot this principle but he remembered it belatedly and apologized. Don't expect reading Csányi-Robah to follow suit. The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-70628224089455468682013-03-26T14:59:12.458+00:002013-03-26T14:59:12.458+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-18439213848798353932013-03-26T11:30:31.635+00:002013-03-26T11:30:31.635+00:00CC, I get your point, but I think your comments a...CC, I get your point, but I think your comments at Sarah are misdirected. I didn't read this as "snearing innuendo". It's reported quite straight. Myself, I was only vaguely aware of Ezra Levant, and didn't realise the backstory behind any controversy surrounding him. <br /><br />I also think you might be reading overmuch into Csányi-Robah's anti-Zionism. She seems to be much more prominent in forging common cause than in competition. As well as the negative link about her http://www.jewishtribune.ca/news/2012/10/10/farber-aids-pro-roma-group-against-kenney-haifa-u here are some other relevant links:<br /><br />http://www.cjnews.com/?q=node/100453<br /><br />http://www.romatoronto.org/media.html<br /><br />http://www.jewishtribune.ca/news/2012/10/10/farber-aids-pro-roma-group-against-kenney-haifa-u<br /><br />http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/bernie-farber/canada-human-rights-record_b_2598003.htmlbobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-87194823222495413402013-03-24T20:33:47.683+00:002013-03-24T20:33:47.683+00:00Here is the apology:
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca...Here is the apology:<br /><br />http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews<br />/straighttalk/archives/2013/03/20130318-180525.htmlThe Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-48890185415926626632013-03-24T17:01:55.419+00:002013-03-24T17:01:55.419+00:00Perhaps the "delayed"" apology was ...Perhaps the "delayed"" apology was due to Levant noticing the lack of disinterest in the whole affair. Perhaps he later considered that his reluctance to admit his own moral failure is a mirror image of the bad faith in which this complaint is being couched and decided to do the right thing, and not just the politically correct thing. To me the apology seems not only genuine but going further than strictly required in order to save face. But what do I know? Clearly you are in a much better position to judge the authenticity of the apology. After all, his rather vehement televised rants about Israel, Islamic antisemitism, and such, render him a suspect from the get go. <br /><br />I'm always happy to learn from those who know better who is or is not to be believed. The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-26394357875365703672013-03-24T16:22:26.110+00:002013-03-24T16:22:26.110+00:00I did not know about her political agenda. Genera...I did not know about her political agenda. Generally I'm aware of a lot of cooperation between those working against antisemitism and against anti-Roma bigotry, so it wouldn't have been something I'd look out for. (However I am aware of stories about one particularly nasty Roma advocacy site which is also antisemitic (Australian I think) but that was because it was being condemned by Roma activists. I am also aware of some tension over Holocaust memorial issues - but I'm still more aware of cooperation than conflict. Of course the Roma Holocaust is sometimes invoked by antisemites to belittle the Shoah.)<br /><br />However what I *did* notice was that there seemed an unnecessary focus on the fact Levant is Jewish in some of the coverage of this whole story - but not, as far as I remember, from Roma sources in particular. You may of course be right about her motivation - perhaps the information about the legal threat has been distorted or manipulated in some way - but I still think it was an unpleasant rant and a delayed apology. Sarah ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-25289012933511247062013-03-24T15:26:40.233+00:002013-03-24T15:26:40.233+00:00Only "Reasonable"? Openly castigating hi...Only "Reasonable"? Openly castigating himself for "stereotyping ..."the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism."??<br /><br />I've been trying to figure out who and what Csányi-Robah is, and, what do you know, "In January 2011 she was a featured speaker at a Never Again for Anyone event whose sponsors included the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network." and the group she works for "The Roma Community Centre had initially been listed as one of the parties slated to protest Kenney, along with other virulently anti-Israel groups such as Queers Against Israeli Apartheid, Independent Jewish Voices, Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid, International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and Jews Opposing Zionism.".<br /><br />I don't suppose anti-Zionist sentiments (we know what that means these days) had anything with her sneering rejection of Levant's apology, Levant being a highly visible supporter of Israel and such?<br /><br /><br />Isn't Levant's apology what civilized, thoughtful people wish for? A sincere apology that admits to an understanding of the wrong that had been done without providing mitigating excuses? Don't we want more of this type of contrition? Doesn't it take time to work out the full realization of what he actually said? <br /><br />Never mind. In the matter of forgiveness, I follow the Judaic instruction:<br /><br /> "It is forbidden to be obdurate and not allow yourself to be appeased. On the contrary, one should be easily pacified and find it difficult to become angry. When asked by an offender for forgiveness, one should forgive with a sincere mind and a willing spirit. . . forgiveness is natural to the seed of Israel." (Mishneh Torah, Teshuvah 2:10)<br /><br />I have no idea what the Roma code of forgiveness is. I've recently learned quite a lot more about the suffering of Roma, from Isabel Fonseca's book and other sources. It was impossible not to learn also of the collaboration of Roma with anti-Jewish prejudices at different points in more recent history. I understood that to be a necessary evil, part of the need for survival in implacably hostile environment.<br /><br />I don't see how you can justify this person's interpretation of Levant's apology, or separate it from her other political agenda. <br /><br /><br /><br />The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-49720833090384942602013-03-24T13:13:34.455+00:002013-03-24T13:13:34.455+00:00Thank you TCC. The apology is reasonable, but it h...Thank you TCC. The apology is reasonable, but it has been about a year in coming, whereas I think the actual TV channel apologised last year. So the speculation that there might be some link with threatened legal action did seem as though it might have some basis. Sarah ABnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-43339409155761499752013-03-24T12:43:49.879+00:002013-03-24T12:43:49.879+00:00I expect this report has already been submitted to...I expect this report has already been submitted to the UNHR Council? When can we expect a discussion and proper condemnation of these practices by European countries against their Roma citizens?<br /><br />BTW, Ezra Levant may be a real pain in the ass but his apology seems as sincere and honest as anyone would wish such an apology to be. He seems genuinely alarmed at his own way of expressing his views, doesn't shy away from admitting it and does not follow it with a "but". Levant is not known for being intimidated by Human rights litigations against him. He rather thrives on them. Why the sneering innuendo that belittles the value of his apology? <br /><br />The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.com