tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post2799457828311744109..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: From Jams' archive: Thatcher and Solidarnosc (and Pol Pot)bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-74494484853287505782013-04-17T07:33:10.061+01:002013-04-17T07:33:10.061+01:00During the miners strike in '84-5 coal was imp...During the miners strike in '84-5 coal was imported from Poland via east coast ports. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-19771772886786873262013-04-14T23:41:18.210+01:002013-04-14T23:41:18.210+01:00Is it reprehensible to have opposed German reunifi...Is it reprehensible to have opposed German reunification? How well I remember my Russian acquaintances telling me in 1979 that the USSR should not allow the two Germanies to be reunited for at least 500 years. They were typical. I also remember travelling on a Russian bus with Danes, and some passengers wanting them kicked off, believing them to be German. Fear of a united Germany was a majority opinion prior to 1989.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-22712367786513061202013-04-14T14:13:45.321+01:002013-04-14T14:13:45.321+01:00Right as you are, I am at least appreciative of he...Right as you are, I am at least appreciative of her post-office rhetoric calling for intervention the Balkans against the majority of Tories. Certainly, she had her moments of idealism; but never was she willing to confront them if it was politically inexpedient to do so. Perhaps there's been a slight change there under New Labour and the present coalition? It remains to be seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-54085779607803206622013-04-14T01:04:34.117+01:002013-04-14T01:04:34.117+01:00Sorry to go on, but some further snippets of meeti...Sorry to go on, but some further snippets of meetings between Thatcher and Gorbachev posted <a href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB422/" rel="nofollow">here</a> are interesting. I found this <a href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB422/docs/Doc%204%201989-04-05%20Gorbachev-Thatcher%20memcon.pdf" rel="nofollow">April 1989 conversation</a> on resolving conflicts in Africa particularly striking, and quite a contrast with the more combative tone of the March 1987 excerpt.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-40535381902747963862013-04-13T16:43:58.299+01:002013-04-13T16:43:58.299+01:00On the Khmer Rouge story, I notice that some detai...On the Khmer Rouge story, I notice that some details of Pilger's account have been disputed (see for example comments <a href="http://mickhartley.typepad.com/blog/2009/02/comment-not-free.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>) so saying "Thatcher tried to return to power the worst Stalinist dictatorship of the twentieth century" <i>might</i> be going a bit far. It would be good to see a detailed re-examination of this story by a more reliable journalist than Pilger. Still, even on the basis of those aspects not in dispute, it confirms the realist-not-idealist view of Thatcher.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-51901001157394012872013-04-13T12:19:03.263+01:002013-04-13T12:19:03.263+01:00Yes Richard, you're correct that the meeting w...Yes Richard, you're correct that the meeting was prior to the fall of the Wall (my apologies for the clumsily inaccurate phrasing) though I think it's clear both Gorbachev and Thatcher anticipated the end of the closed border even if they didn't foresee the exact date and manner of the Wall's collapse; why else would they be discussing reunification? They both saw the Wall's days were numbered, and were discussing what would follow.<br /><br />By the time of their meeting, East Germans were already crossing to the West in large numbers via the <a href="http://www.austria1989.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69&Itemid=100" rel="nofollow">Hungary-Austria border</a>. The East German status-quo was clearly not sustainable, though whether the immediate future would bring violent repression, reform, or collapse, was not certain.<br /><br />Thatcher's preference was clearly for reform within existing borders, and I wouldn't argue that there was anything immoral in that. The interesting part in the context of the above post is the contrast between sometimes idealistic public rhetoric and a more realist balance of power policy in private. In this she was far from alone, but it's worth highlighting in view of the tendency towards hagiography that Bob is responding to.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-46321968426948491892013-04-13T12:16:21.600+01:002013-04-13T12:16:21.600+01:00My argument would not be that Mrs T was an appalli...My argument would not be that Mrs T was an appalling hypocrite or that she was a friend of the Soviet totalitarian dictatorships. Rather, I think that (as per Jams' original title "The Joys of Realpolitik") that she was essentially a cynical realist and not the conviction Cold Warrior that she is portrayed as. Her priority was not freedom in Eastern Europe and Kumpuchea; it was geopolitical order and stability, business as usual. bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-46250171212010108692013-04-12T22:36:18.639+01:002013-04-12T22:36:18.639+01:00No, kellie, that's not quite right. The discu...No, kellie, that's not quite right. The discussions with Mr Gorbachev described at Foreign Policy took place before the fall of the Berlin Wall. No-one in September 1989 had any inkling that the Wall would fall within two months. In Berlin the hardliners still had the lid on things. Mrs Thatcher's opposition to German reunification was well known at the time and, as Foreign Policy indicates, widely shared. Mrs T did not show support for maintaining the Warsaw Pact - what she told Gorbachev was that she "was not interested in its dissolution". In other words, let events take their course. She may well have felt it would be counter-productive to press for the early demise of the WP. Does anyone really think she would have put all her cards on the table in her talks with Gorbachev? <br /><br />If you want to show that Mrs Thatcher was an appalling hypocrite, you really can't just rely on random reports of meetings free from context or historical background to make your point for you. Richard Powellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-89215068472592035122013-04-12T16:09:15.435+01:002013-04-12T16:09:15.435+01:00Related at Foreign Policy, Thatcher's oppositi...Related at <a href="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/04/09/i_met_with_unambiguous_failure_thatcher_gorbachev_germany?page=full" rel="nofollow">Foreign Policy</a>, Thatcher's opposition to German reunification and support for maintaining the Warsaw Pact after the fall of the Berlin Wall.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03503738414917449549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-11842414399026433672013-04-11T22:32:05.213+01:002013-04-11T22:32:05.213+01:00You, Shaun Downey and James Bloodworth all miss a ...You, Shaun Downey and James Bloodworth all miss a rather important point. This is that repressive measures were indeed taken against Solidarity, and the British government did not support those measures. The British government did not shaft Solidarnosc, and almost certainly never had the slightest intention of doing so. Lord Carrington's conversation, probably with the FRG Foreign Minister, was presumably a discussion of hypothetical scenarios. The key thing would have been to head off a Soviet invasion.<br /><br /> As for sanctions, an article in the Times of 18 December 1981 noted that "the idea of imposing economic and political sanctions on the new Poland is in attractive because it would drive the military still further into the arms of the Russians." In any case, even in 1981 the UK would not have imposed sanctions unilaterally, but only in concert with the EEC as it then was.Richard Powellnoreply@blogger.com