tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post4539804932526235891..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: Mehdi Hasan continuedbobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-32563575925483160462009-08-06T16:13:40.146+01:002009-08-06T16:13:40.146+01:00Quite controversial.Quite controversial.kensington and chelseahttp://kensingtonandchelsea.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-10124188832496498632009-08-01T21:27:01.447+01:002009-08-01T21:27:01.447+01:00"Hasan is not stating that Jews cause anti-Se..."Hasan is not stating that Jews cause anti-Semitism, he is arguing that Israel causes it - big difference."<br /><br />No. It really is not that big of difference. It might make a big difference to radical anti-Zionists but most Jews see through the b.s. <br /><br />The sort of "anti-Zionism" common in Islamic countries is based on a long foundation of Jew hatred. It predates the formation of the modern state of Israel (20th century) or the Zionist movement (19th century).TNCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-71000800843762390222009-07-31T13:44:22.819+01:002009-07-31T13:44:22.819+01:00Hasan is not stating that Jews cause anti-Semitism...Hasan is not stating that Jews cause anti-Semitism, he is arguing that Israel causes it - big difference.<br /><br />Also perhaps 'cause' is the wrong word in this particular article as you point out the cause far preceeds any current 'spikes,' but I would argue that Israel contributes to anti-Semetism as highlighted by the CST.2yyiamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-1752220207976929062009-07-29T17:23:53.780+01:002009-07-29T17:23:53.780+01:00Bob writes:
"There is, of course, a "sp...Bob writes:<br /><br />"There is, of course, a "spike", as the CST puts it, in antisemitic incidents every time the Iz-Pal situation flares up. There is, in this sense, a relationship. But the "cause" comes before this..."<br /><br />Perhaps some folks need to remember the difference between causality and correlation. They are not the same.TNChttp://newcentrist.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-82170051372723901502009-07-29T12:22:20.272+01:002009-07-29T12:22:20.272+01:00DK, I am not calling you a racist. In fact, I'...DK, I am not calling you a racist. In fact, I'm not sure I'm calling Hasan a racist. However, I think that his <em>argument</em>, that Jews cause antisemitism, is racist. And, if I understand your argument right, I think it is racist too. <br /><br />Your argument, as you phrase it here, is that immigration policies lead to the rise of the BNP. That argument is identical, in my mind, to Hasan's, that Israel's policies lead to antisemitism. Or, as Karl Pfeifer puts it in the Engage discussion thread, that short skirts lead to rape. <br /><br />Antisemitism is never the fault of the Jews, and anti-Muslim or anti-immigrant racism is never the fault of the Muslims or immigrants, just as rape is never the fault of the victim. <br /><br />There is, of course, a "spike", as the CST puts it, in antisemitic incidents every time the Iz-Pal situation flares up. There is, in this sense, a relationship. But the "cause" comes before this: the cause is the antisemitic attitudes that already exist, which are actively circulated by Islamists, fascists and some anti-Zionists. (In the same way that I doubt that simply seeing a miniskirt would be enough to make you rape someone; there would have to be something there already.) <br /><br />The type of racism that feeds the BNP is already there, circulating in the mainstream media and in the common sense everyday language of both white British and long-settled minorities (including Jews). It is this we have to tackle, not the presence of immigrants - just as assuming that solving the Iz-Pal conflict will magically make antisemitism disappear. <br /><br />One caveat to what I'm saying. I don't think the BNP vote is purely fueled by racism, or that all BNP voters are racism. There are other factors and motivations too, among some of them, such as disaffection from the political system, a sense of being failed by the mainstream parties and by the labour movement, a lack of radical alternatives to the mainstream parties, anti-elitism, a general alienation from politics, etc. <br /><br />--<br /><br />Migreli, I basically agree with all of what you say. Except maybe the final sentence. I'm not sure of the specific Hitchens statement you're referring to (although I should!) If Hitch said <em>the</em> Zionists, then I agree with you. But I think there is a case to be made that <em>some</em> Zionists have and do exploit the Holocaust in cynical ways. I wouldn't make that case, but I don't think that making it is automatically a racist argument. <br /><br />--<br /><br />I think both these related issues strengthen me in coming to the view that we need to dispense with talking about antisemitic or racist <em>people</em>, and start talking to antisemitic arguments, discourse and actions. This is a position I have expressed in comment threads <a href="http://blog.z-word.com/2009/05/the-new-antisemitism-sharpening-the-debate/#comment-5259" rel="nofollow">here</a> (in relation to antisemitism) and more sketchily <a href="http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/northern-uproar/#comment-25228" rel="nofollow">here</a> (in relation to the BNP).bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-26452053889373232732009-07-29T06:52:35.097+01:002009-07-29T06:52:35.097+01:00The idea that it is the actions and character of t...The idea that it is the actions and character of the Jewish people that are responsible for anti-semitism has had many prominent adherents. It was commonplace before and during WW2, and has always found proponents in the Western democracies. It is as prevalent today as ever.<br /><br />A corollary of this belief is the pseudo-syllogism that because the Nazis committed grave atrocities against the Jews, the Jews must have committed grave provocations to incur such consequences. Thus the monstrousness of the Holocaust must have been a consequence of the monstrousness of the Jews.<br /><br />I propose to call such arguments "false dialectics". They are among the most insidious and successful techniques used in the propaganda war against Israel and its people. Contemporary practitioners, like Mehdi Hasan, are enemies of humanity and decency. And didn't Christopher Hitchens, when he approvingly quoted the slur that "the Zionists have ruthlessly exploited the Holocaust", engage in the same kind of perversion of moral reality?Migrelinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-61982706730467687662009-07-29T05:48:47.387+01:002009-07-29T05:48:47.387+01:00Bob, you can call me whatever names you see fit, b...Bob, you can call me whatever names you see fit, but don't misquote me. Immigration policies--at least in part-- led to support for the BNP. How is this not fact? <br /><br />And the only link to the concept that "Israel causes anti-Semitism" and my argument is that it involve the same immigrant group that has such strong feelings of resentment towards Israel's existence.DKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03266121991724292663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-77662935560906759742009-07-28T20:17:30.346+01:002009-07-28T20:17:30.346+01:00What is Mehdi Hasan saying, then, when he states:
...What is Mehdi Hasan saying, then, when he states:<br /><br />"Nothing justifies anti-Semitism ...But I do find it both tragic and ironic that the state of Israel... provokes such awful anti-Semitic attacks against diaspora Jews who have nothing to do with the actions of the IDF or the policies of Netanyahu, Olmert and Sharon."?The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.com