tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post8414750093486104858..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: Holocaust memorial day in Lewishambobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-78095464561381462522011-02-23T23:40:37.355+00:002011-02-23T23:40:37.355+00:00Funny isn,t it when Mr Hamilton shouted out Gaz...Funny isn,t it when Mr Hamilton shouted out Gaza he wasn,t talking about the 700+ Fatah members and others killed since Hamas took over in gaza.<br />Hamas actualy killed more Palestinians during the gaza war than israelis.<br />Perhaps Mr hamilton will be hoping Hizbollah do a much better job on the Israelis.<br /><br />If you care about Palestinians dont just remember the Fatah members Mr Hamilton.Don,t forget the 20.000 Palestinians killed by the Jordanians in the 70,s or the thousands killed in Lebanon in the late 80,s by the shite Amal and the Syrians.<br /><br />All the above wern,t killed by jews and if you wern,t killed by jews well Mr Hamilton just isn,t quite as interested in you.davebrocklynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-2173139348663110012011-02-23T09:39:31.705+00:002011-02-23T09:39:31.705+00:00Indeed not just Jews were targeted in the Nazi Hol...Indeed not just Jews were targeted in the Nazi Holocaust. It was an act of genocide against the Roma too, and many other people were killed. It was a crime against the Jews and it was a crime against humanity. It was part of a continuum of human inhumanity, but it stands out from the rest of the continuum, which is why we commemorate it with special solemnity on days like the Holocaust memorial day.<br /><br />It is not true that no act of violence is worse than any other. A child slapping her mother in rage is not the same as a mother slapping her child in cruelty. It is grotesque to try to apply some kind of comparative calculus of violence, but on any conceivable scale the Holocaust stands out as radically different from and worse than what has happened in Gaza.<br /><br />I agree that Israelis and supporters of Israel have a duty to speak out against Israeli state violence, as British people have a duty to speak out about British state violence. But this has nothing to do with the Holocaust, with Holocaust memorial day, with Lewisham, or with the rabbi invited to speak here. There is no way in which commemorating the Holocaust can be made conditional on uttering the name of other acts of oppression, by Jews or not. I make no presumptions about the rabbi's opinion on Israel, and whether he does or does not speak out in any other context, and whether I would expect him to - but in this situation, he had absolutely no reason to mention Gaza, and to heckle him from the floor and call for him to do so is obscene.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-18436504155944448032011-02-23T09:27:23.174+00:002011-02-23T09:27:23.174+00:00Lisa,
Please could you remind me which ethnic gro...Lisa,<br /><br />Please could you remind me which ethnic group was targeted for *complete* extermination?<br /><br />And after that, could you tell us when (which year) anti-Jewish laws were implemented in Germany?modernitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-64788730041637006572011-02-23T06:54:57.179+00:002011-02-23T06:54:57.179+00:00The Holocaust between 1939 and 1945 was not just a...The Holocaust between 1939 and 1945 was not just a time when Jews were killed. Gays and socialists and Romany people were also targeted.<br />The Rabbi chose to make the link with contemporary genocides.<br />Unless Israelis and people who support Israel start speaking out against the violence that is being perpetrated there and start campaigning for it to stop how will it end? As a pacifist I am against all war and all violence past, present and future. We must speak against all violence and not pretend that some is worst than others.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10031462032909126392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-79291748778857962662011-02-20T23:25:27.168+00:002011-02-20T23:25:27.168+00:00Its strange how the left are in favour of immigrat...Its strange how the left are in favour of immigration into this country as I am but seem to be against it in Palestine.<br />If a group such as the BNP went about murdering Muslims because they were worried they were going to take over in the uk I’m sure Mr Hamilton like me would try and stop it.<br />Though in palestine/israel Mr Hamilton seems more on the side of those who want wipe out recent Jewish immigrants and their indigenous counterparts <br />That’s why its so hypocritical of Mr Hamilton to be only concerned for the people of Gaza .<br /><br />If mr Hamilton reads his history books he will know that many palestinians didn’t want immigrants escaping Nazi Germany to make it to Palestine. The Arab revolt of 36-39 and its attempt to kill Jews and oppose British rule encouraged the British to clamp down on escaping Jewish refugees.<br /><br />So in a way Mr Hamilton was right to connect Gaza with the holocaust because the Palestinians of the 30,s and 40,s must share the blame of denying Jews a refuge.<br /><br />Of course it doesn’t end their the mufti of Jerusalem helped raise two ss divisions of Bosnians and encouraged the final solution. The mufti promised that Palestinians would assist the einsatzgruppen in eliminating the Jews of Palestine<br /><br />The missiles that hit Israel from Gaza are named qassam after the leader of the muftis militia.<br />So today’s Hama’s killers are directly linked to those who murdered Jews ,immigrants or not .<br /><br /><br />Next time Mr Hamilton wants to mention Gaza please remind him that the people of Gaza elected people who are disappointed the holocaust was never implemented in full in Palestine. That Hama’s want to drive both immigrants and indigenous Jews into the sea.<br /><br />please remind Mr Hamilton that Hamas have declared that Jewish children in England should be murdered as a consequence of Israel actions in Gaza.<br /><br />So yes Mr Hamilton you were right to link Gaza to the holocaust just not quite in the way I’m sure you intended.<br /><br />I do feel a certain sympathy for Mr Hamilton if he reads the independent and watches channel 4 . They won’t be reporting the real links between Gaza and the holocaust.<br />however mr Hamilton will enjoy the fact that independent has printed anti-Semitic material from its journalists. He will probably enjoy "the Promise" because channel 4 like directors whose hero is someone who believe Israel shouldn’t exist <br /><br />As for Gaza being comparable to other genocides .<br />well not many genocides see the population rising in Gaza from 250,000 in early 70,s to 1.5 million now <br /><br />Interesting though Mr Hamilton how your justification for saying recent events in Gaza were genocide :just happen to use the same criteria and argument the NF/Bnp use when saying the white race is facing genocide in the uk.<br /><br /><br />maybe the far left and the faright aren’t as far apart as they pretend.<br /><br />As for the reverend well why get into a row at a council event .<br />Still I bet Mr Hamilton got a round of beer bought from him from his Trotskyite friends .<br />Lets be honest shouting out Gaza when a 75 year old is speaking is the height of bravery .<br />Try exercising your democratic right Mr Hamilton by interrupting a speech by a hamas leader in Gaza and you might not be so lucky .<br />Try saying Fatah and you might end up taking a permanent dive.<br /><br />please keep highlighting the link between Gaza and the holocaust I know I willdavebrocklynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-10140824146356298632011-02-15T16:16:00.593+00:002011-02-15T16:16:00.593+00:00I can't see the point in being ingenuous abou...I can't see the point in being ingenuous about this. Interrupting a solemn and poignant ceremony with a single word - Gaza - as a way of drawing attention to a highly complex situation and suggesting it is another example of so-called genocide (NB: not my definition)implies hypocrisy on the part of a Jew in speaking about the Holocaust while his fellow-Jews are engaged in supposedly similar actions. In what world can this possibly NOT be seen as anti-Semitic?<br /><br />I applaud Rev Amit's dignified response.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-64008961633864215822011-02-10T15:03:32.958+00:002011-02-10T15:03:32.958+00:00Bob,
I think the problem is, the baggage.
Once p...Bob,<br /><br />I think the problem is, the baggage.<br /><br />Once people have been thru these cults and grouplets it often shapes their thinking in ways they don't realise and they frequently bring along the worst aspects of fake Leninism to their new organisations or groups, who fail in turn as John Sullivan showed.<br /><br />That's not to say, that *everyone* who goes thru these groupings comes out irreparably damaged but it is hardly coincidence that in Britain group after group failed, campaign after campaign ran into problems (look at the NSSN, etc).<br /><br />Still, I hope Lewisham People Before Profit succeed before the egos kick in.modernitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-39813073273707847462011-02-10T11:05:43.080+00:002011-02-10T11:05:43.080+00:00I agree Mod. The phrase "people before profit...I agree Mod. The phrase "people before profit" was, I think, the slogan of the Socialist Alliance, the only formation, in my memory in the UK, since the Anti-Poll Tax Unions, to break out of this left cage on any kind of trans-local scale, and possibly something of its spirit survives in LPBP.<br /><br />(Of course, the Trot sects and the SWP in particular killed the SA... So the risk of any such formations being killed in this moment is very large.)bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-49848670616664086772011-02-10T00:18:12.515+00:002011-02-10T00:18:12.515+00:00But Bob, you know that a few election results don&...But Bob, you know that a few election results don't really mean much.<br /><br />The problem is the internal contradictions, inherent in so many Leninist/fake Leninist grouplets and one-time Leninists, that dog these campaigns.<br /><br />Ego, power and that wonderfully condescending attitude found amongst politicos means that so many potential successes fail.<br /><br />I hope Lewisham People Before Profit do good work on the anti-cuts campaigns, but I can't help thinking that fragile egos and political manoeuvring may well be its eventual downfall... time will tell..modernitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-83266463695660767472011-02-09T17:50:46.849+00:002011-02-09T17:50:46.849+00:00Are Lewisham People Before Profit big down your wa...<em>Are Lewisham People Before Profit big down your way?</em><br /><br />Depends how you measure "big". In the council elections last year, they came last more or less everywhere they stood, with 200 to 400 votes, with one ward (New Cross) where they got I think 600 or so - but the places where they might be expected to have done best also had a very credible Green party presence which took a significant chunk of the radical vote. In the ward where they didn't stand, the Socialist Party (with whom they had a pact) got over 1000. The huge turnout for Labour in Lewisham was a factor, as people like me were panicked by Cameron-fear into going back to a Labour vote. <br /><br />In the mayoral election, however, Hamilton's personal vote was much more impressive, 6000, but that was still 5th, behind the Greens, and should be compared to Labour's 47,000. The better showing the mayoral election arguably shows that Hamilton is there most well known personality, or it might also reflect Steve Bullock's declining glamour.<br /><br />Hamilton is a personality from his prominence in very popular campaigns on issues like swimming pool and school closures going back a few years.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-56732235385362749542011-02-09T17:18:25.781+00:002011-02-09T17:18:25.781+00:00Bob,
Are Lewisham People Before Profit big down y...Bob,<br /><br />Are Lewisham People Before Profit big down your way?<br /><br />Cos it seems to me that they have many of these repellent habits of Last Century's politicos (the inability to argue coherently, and a distinct dislike of answering questions)<br /><br />The Lewisham PBP web site seems a bit fixated with leaders, or one leader, John Hamilton.<br /><br />Or is it just like a freelance version of the Lefties political cults of old?<br /><br />If so, then it is a shame, as WS said:<br /><br /><i>"If Hamilton is doing decent anti-cuts work (and I see no reason to doubt you that he is), <b>this kind of cobweb fuckwittery is even more indefensible.</b>"</i>modernitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-3300821427853583482011-02-09T16:25:54.884+00:002011-02-09T16:25:54.884+00:00But, Anonymous, it was only Gaza that John called ...But, Anonymous, it was only Gaza that John called out to the rabbi. It was the rabbi himself that mentioned the others, so your point does not follow.Bobhttp://brockley.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-32186404691532066362011-02-09T15:22:09.944+00:002011-02-09T15:22:09.944+00:00If we are to take the request of mentioning Gaza a...If we are to take the request of mentioning Gaza as a request for an apology, surely we should count every other genocide mentioned? <br />The list was clearly not intended as a list of apologies from the Jewish communities, because on it Rwanda and the Holocaust were mentioned.<br />Taken out of context, it may seem that John was asking a Rabbi to apologise for the actions of the Israeli state, but in context, it is clear that nothing of the sort was tryeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-78885979324849822512011-02-08T21:07:38.531+00:002011-02-08T21:07:38.531+00:00I've no time for Lewisham councillors and thei...I've no time for Lewisham councillors and their cuts, and Mike Harris is clearly looking to discredit a political thorn in the Labour Group's side. Unfortunately that doesn't mean that he is wrong on this occasion.<br /><br />Bottom line for me is that shouting out at a Rabbi on Holocaust Memorial Day is just not on.<br /><br />I don't think that JH is anti-semitic in intent, but there's a simple rule I apply to judge whether something has anti-semitic content, regardless of intent: is something being treated differently (more negatively) because Jewish people are involved, or believed to be involved?<br /><br />So I don't think there's anything anti-semitic about opposing the actions of the Israeli state in Gaza from a consistent perspective (say a total pacifist or anarchist/communist view of opposing all state violence). But if Gaza is treated radically differently from other similar conflicts you have to ask why? And when any comparison is made between the actions of Israel and the Holocaust well you don't even need to ask why. Nobody would make that comparison if Jews weren't involved - people don't generally accuse the Americans or British of genocide in Afghanistan although at least as many innocent civilians have been killed there.Morbid Symptomsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-79124011902109484732011-02-08T18:47:00.574+00:002011-02-08T18:47:00.574+00:00Not sure if you have the interweb up there old cha...Not sure if you have the interweb up there old chap, but a visit to a website might be a good first stop:<br /><br />http://www.lewishampeopleb4profit.org.uk/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-36954519444158683642011-02-08T18:33:04.267+00:002011-02-08T18:33:04.267+00:00you have simply to come to one of our meetings to ...<i>you have simply to come to one of our meetings to find out all (and possibly more) that you need - many of us are very busy with the 'carnival for cuts' (Feb 19th) at the moment but I'll let you know when there's an open meeting</i><br /><br />Chap, I know this is hard for Londoners to understand, but there is actually intelligent life north of the Watford Gap.<br /><br />In other words, unless you clarify here, it is logistically unlikely I can find out anything like that by attending a meeting at the other end of the country.Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-71427286659027986952011-02-08T16:26:48.925+00:002011-02-08T16:26:48.925+00:00As I doubt we will hear back from John Hamilton, I...As I doubt we will hear back from John Hamilton, I would like to ask our anonymous Lewisham People Before Profit person:<br /><br />Internally, <b>has anyone brought up these points to John Hamilton</b> and explained to him that he hasn't enhanced People Before Profit's reputation one bit? In fact, the opposite.<br /><br />Has anyone? I'd like to know.modernitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-41061980184023278662011-02-08T16:12:30.481+00:002011-02-08T16:12:30.481+00:00"I am interested in what kind of party democr..."I am interested in what kind of party democracy there is in LPBP?"<br /><br />you have simply to come to one of our meetings to find out all (and possibly more) that you need - many of us are very busy with the 'carnival for cuts' (Feb 19th) at the moment but I'll let you know when there's an open meeting<br /><br />invitation extends to Ross as well (as well as anyone else) so Ross especially can be part of our 'rooted in deep and strong engagement' (that'll be you Ross) movement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-79991240638467081742011-02-08T15:59:10.712+00:002011-02-08T15:59:10.712+00:00On whether LPBP is or isn't "John's p...On whether LPBP is or isn't "John's party": I accept he may not be the formal "leader", but he is very much the public face of the group - e.g. its most prominent candidate over the years, is focus of 5 of 15 campaign videos on website plus is in a sixth, etc. I am interested in what kind of party democracy there is in LPBP?<br /><br />Ross, it is true that the too hasty accusation of racism diminishes anti-racism. Harris does not, however, say that Hamilton was antisemitic, but rather that it "stuck in [his] craw", which I think is the right reaction. <br /><br />I am not primarily interested in whether it was antisemitic by intent, and think the issue of intent is too difficult terrain; my belief is, first, that it was antisemitic in effect, and, secondly, that it reveals something in the air on the left, which is a total and utter disproportionality about Israel/Palestine in in general and Gaza in particular.<br /><br /><em>There is no logic for the assertion that adding Gaza to the list meant that Hamilton was demanding the Rabbi apologise for the Israeli state's actions - as I said earlier the Rabbi wasn't apologising for any of the other atrocities , so why does the addition of Gaza suddenly turn it into an apologising thing.</em><br />Yes, I guess this is true. But it leads me to ask again: would Hamilton have said this if an imam or pastor was speaking? I can't imagine he would. <br /><br />It was not simply using a (totally inappropriate) platform to make a political point about Gaza: it was the Jew (the rabbi) who was the object of his interjection.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-70077217296378339102011-02-08T08:28:47.470+00:002011-02-08T08:28:47.470+00:00"I'm not a member of John's party&quo..."I'm not a member of John's party"<br /><br />If referring to LPBP then, again, it is not 'johns party', he is a member of the party, and not the 'leader' either (that being a titular role anyway).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-69369691850160378762011-02-08T02:06:04.121+00:002011-02-08T02:06:04.121+00:00"this comment down as anti-semitic and no amo...<i>"this comment down as anti-semitic and no amount of discussion is really going to change our respective positions on this. "</i><br /><br />That does show a certain contempt for the people here, when you argue that they couldn't ever be won over by lucid arguments.<br /><br />I assure you that isn't the case.<br /><br />Most people here are rational and can be won over by reason, if you have the capacity to employ it.<br /><br />Equally, you would have to take into account all the counterarguments, the parallels, etc "How many people would shout at an Imam about Sudan and not be thought as a bigot, or worse?"ModernityBloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-59914950775887451522011-02-08T01:04:53.348+00:002011-02-08T01:04:53.348+00:00Let the record show that Ross did not answer the q...Let the record show that Ross did not answer the question why Hamilton inserted the Gaza shout, or what function it served by being added.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-15526330852938926262011-02-07T23:23:34.092+00:002011-02-07T23:23:34.092+00:00Bob - think we'll need to agree to disagree on...Bob - think we'll need to agree to disagree on this one. Partly as I don't have time to argue it out here and partly because it's clear you and others here clearly have this comment down as anti-semitic and no amount of discussion is really going to change our respective positions on this. I'm sure you'll agree however that we do seem to find common cause on most of the issues that we have discussed here over the years and my intervention in this discussion is based on my genuine and considered appraisal of the situation.<br /><br />Quickly before I go though:-<br /><br />Re your point though about there being no logic to adding Gaza to the list. There is no logic for the assertion that adding Gaza to the list meant that Hamilton was demanding the Rabbi apologise for the Israeli state's actions - as I said earlier the Rabbi wasn't apologising for any of the other atrocities , so why does the addition of Gaza suddenly turn it into an apologising thing. So it's clear that logic isn't really playing much of a role here at all.<br /><br />Re the parallel with swappie crys of racism - I think you've misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I wasn't drawing a parallel with the content or manner of it, but instead the effect or impact of it - i.e. if people go around crying wolf with no substantive reason to do so, it devalues the very thing itself and is utterly counterproductive to any fight against racism/anti-semitism etc.. If every event or act can somehow have racism or anti-semitism squeezed out of it then everything and nothing is racist/anti-semitic.<br /><br />Re PBP, i certainly didn't mean to compare them to any trot front anti-cuts groups - just that I saw a lack of a genuine anchored practical working class orientation in the area I live in. <br /><br />@ WS<br /><br />I agree with you about the obsession of the British left with Israel in particular and the middle east in general. I've commented on here many times on this very topic and the selectiveness of topics to coattail on - for example the massacre of nearly 200 protestors in one day in Guinea alongside orchestrated rapes in September 2009 raised not a peep from the left blogosphere at a time when countless words were being churned out about the Iranian demonstrations that were going on at the same time. I've always maintained that until the left in Britain make themselves relevant in their own backyard (and therefore command a certain amount of clout as a result of that relevance) their infatuations with romanticised far away struggles are more about making themselve feel good as individuals and are a complete waste of time politically. We in the IWCA have consistently made this position clear and tediously and consistently get labelled racist from the liberal and trot left for doing so (ditto for pointing out the complete and utter failure of official state backed political multiculturalism). But back on topic, cobweb fuckwittery, dumb actions or no meaningful working class politics perhaps, but anti-semitic? definitely not.Rossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-9263891342826069132011-02-07T17:37:48.938+00:002011-02-07T17:37:48.938+00:00@ Ross
If Hamilton is doing decent anti-cuts work...@ Ross<br /><br />If Hamilton is doing decent anti-cuts work (and I see no reason to doubt you that he is), this kind of cobweb fuckwittery is even more indefensible.<br /><br />Even if I take your word that Harris has deliberately played this one for cynical advantage (and New Labour types don't get the benefit of the doubt on that), he wouldn't have been able to if Hamilton hadn't been dumb enough to behave in a way to give him the ammunition.<br /><br />What has this kind of metropolitan middle class obsession with Israel got to do with meaningful working class politics in the first place?Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-53613112096893784962011-02-07T16:58:06.932+00:002011-02-07T16:58:06.932+00:00To Jimmy:
Between 1,100 and 1,400 Gazans (other e...To Jimmy:<br /><br />Between 1,100 and 1,400 Gazans (other estimates vary downwards)were killed during the war. Of whom, 600-700 were civilians. <br /><br />From 2009:<br /><br />"UPDATE, March 27: The IDF has released its official accounting of Gaza fatalities. According to the report, 709 out of 1004 fatalities whose status is known have been identified as militants. The other 295 who have been identified consisted of 89 children under the age of 16, 49 women and 157 civilian adult males. A further 162 fatalities are unclassified. These figures are sharply at odds with those provided by PCHR and other Palestinian sources. "<br /><br />http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1603<br /><br />From November 2010 report:<br /><br />"Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad's admission that Hamas and affiliated militias lost 600-700 fighters in the Israeli "Cast Lead" military operation undermines the central accusation of the Goldstone Report that the Israeli operation was "premised on a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed ... [at] the civilian population." <br /><br />The public, however, is unlikely to know this, because Hamad's remarks have been largely ignored by major news organizations, like the New York Times and the BBC.<br /> <br />Hamad's comments were made in an interview published in the London Arabic daily Al Hayat on Nov. 1, 2010 and reported by Agence France Presse (AFP), the Jerusalem Post and others. According to AFP, he stated<br /><br /> "They say the people suffered from this war, but is Hamas not part of the people? On the first day of the war Israel targeted police stations and 250 martyrs were killed, from Hamas and other factions," he told the paper.<br /><br /> "In addition to them, between 200 and 300 fighters from the Al-Qassam Brigades (Hamas's armed wing) and another 150 security forces were martyred."<br /> (AFP, Nov. 1, 2010)"<br /><br />http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1952The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.com