tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post4754568445255056196..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: Clash of ismsbobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-19612416265541441142011-07-22T10:03:10.928+01:002011-07-22T10:03:10.928+01:00Two comments, and then I will see if I can work ou...Two comments, and then I will see if I can work out how to get Blogger.com to close this thread, or else I'll have to follow Mod's advice and migrate to Wordpress where I can set the comment controls more sophisticatedly. <br /><br />First, I find SR's analysis of nationalism and of anti-Zionism and of their relationship productive and intelligent, but I don't find his "dumb and one eyed" acceptable. Nor do I find the recent and recentish accusations of borderline antisemitism made against him, WS or James Bloodworth at all productive, and in fact think they are completely wide of the mark. Once we start making these kinds of accusations, then we start to lose the ability to make credible distinctions and judgements on these important issues.<br /><br />I don't read the comments at Harry's Place, because I don't like to spend time with discussions like the one in the 117 comments above this one. I have one or two posts I might publish in the next couple of days, if I can find time, including one that sums up my position on some of these issues a bit more clearly, and then I will probably close down for the summer and think about where I'm going after the summer.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-86690805925267325192011-07-21T12:41:00.205+01:002011-07-21T12:41:00.205+01:00SR:
"we know you are dumb and one eyed. In f...SR:<br /><br />"we know you are dumb and one eyed. In fact your whole online persona is a uncontainable flood of the same ol' ideological points, articulated like a dull GSCE student trying to reword the textbook for their coursework. Along with a dash of that right wing "truth-telling bluntness" i.e getting to be a bit bigotted for shits and giggles, there's also the complete lack of weight given to the serious accusations you fling around. It's childish. "<br /><br /><br />Bob:<br /><br />"I think that SR's analysis is a very productive one, and I will hopefully engage with it more fully ..."<br /><br /><br />You might want to try to pinpoint where exactly SR's productive rage is coming from. It's no use telling him I am not really dumb, just a visitor in an island whose language seems only vaguely recognizable, and whose mores and ideas about what makes humanity humanity and justice justice and truth truth and decency decency decency are as bizarre to me as if I were an anthropologist who had just happened upon an isolated tribe in the thicket of the Amazonas with no contact with other fellow-humans since 1378. In fact I'm sure I would have been far more likely to understand that tribe than I do any of you, when all is said and done.<br /><br />There seems to be such self-indulgent, reckless hatred and barely contained malevolence emanating from some guests on your blog, Bob, that it almost takes my breath away. I read these people and all of a sudden the irrationality and excesses of certain historical events make much better sense.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-38877169207569858522011-07-21T08:55:24.875+01:002011-07-21T08:55:24.875+01:00@WS @ Bob "I think SR's position on natio...@WS <i>@ Bob "I think SR's position on nationalism is more productive, and arguably all nationalisms are ultimately racist in some sense"; While that is an element to SR's post, I think you're massively oversimplifying his argument</i><br /><br />Yes, I know it was a lot more complex. I was not reducing to "all nationalisms are ultimately racist in some sense", but saying "<i>and</i> all nationalisms are ultimately racist in some sense", i.e. I was only commenting on the word "racist" and how it should be used. I think that SR's analysis is a very productive one, and I will hopefully engage with it more fully when I have more time - and probably not on this thread!<br /><br />And I'll check my mail - realise I've not checked it for days, even weeks. And also learn more Latin.<br /><br />--<br /><br />Biggest laugh on this thread: Levi <i>And I too don't have a whole lot of time to spare. </i>bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-22633878808382575762011-07-21T08:14:31.288+01:002011-07-21T08:14:31.288+01:00Waterloo Sunset - you don't know what I notice...Waterloo Sunset - you don't know what I notice, only what I comment on. I don't like to discuss many other issues because I disagree with Bob on a lot of things and I don't like to appear unduly contrary. And I too don't have a whole lot of time to spare. And you are simply wrong. Zionism dominates the blog like no other topic and to ditch it would make for a very different project. Just look at the latest two (if not three) posts. <br /><br />You have said that people campaigning against zionism have abandoned class politics. I responded by saying that many of us had no class politics in the first place. My point was that the anti-zionist position (in the west anyway) is simply a liberal position but there are far-reaching class reasons why the ruling class is being and has been so illiberal in its support for zionism. You have said that the zionist left's support for segregation and ethnic cleansing (ie maintaining an ethno-religious demographic balance) amounts to "bog standard liberalism". That is clearly not the case. The question is why do so many "bog standard liberals" support so illiberal a situation in Palestine but not in their own countries?<br /><br />The same goes for Socialrepublican describing the issue as unimportant. But protecting Israel from serious criticism is clearly very important to many people, including Bob and those he describes as his comrades. Just now Rupert Murdoch appears to be involved in a struggle to hold News International together. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency reports how zionist leaders in the US, Australia and the UK are worried that if News International goes down zionism will have lost a trusty ally. Is Murdoch stupid? Is zionism just a game for him?<br /><br />And zionism isn't simply Israeli nationalism. There is no reason why an Israeli nationalism couldn't be inclusive of the Israeli Arabs. Whilst they have rights, they do not have equal rights and few if any zionists advocate complete equality between Jews and non-Jews. If zionism can be described as nationalism at all then it is Jewish nationalism and given the transnational (you might say non-national) nature of Jewish communities it is colonialism of the eliminationist variety. To call it nationalism puts it on a par with other nationalisms and raises the old chestnut of singling Israel out unduly. You also ignore the adverse impact that many Jews around the world perceive zionism having on their own identity and existence.<br /><br />Anyway, for the class aspects of zionism, anti-zionism and the boycott, Gabriel Ash wrote a very good article titled "Why boycott Israel? Because it's good for you".<br />I won't provide the original link because Dissident Voice, where it first appeared, has developed quite a love affair with Gilad Atzmon since the article appeared. But you could google it. It's well worth a read.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-54877468170762764012011-07-21T06:41:48.340+01:002011-07-21T06:41:48.340+01:00@ SR
Vultur non capit muscam...@ SR<br /><br />Vultur non capit muscam...Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-40583738709215133142011-07-21T05:45:25.615+01:002011-07-21T05:45:25.615+01:00My point was Zionism (i.e. Israeli Nationalism) an...My point was Zionism (i.e. Israeli Nationalism) and it's denial (anti-Zionism) are now globalised in the original sense (what I meant by "democratised"), unattached to their geographical or cultural roots, an identity you can pick up, play around in, synthesise with other markers, psychologically invest in and leave for something new. Adoptive Zionism or the '68 anti-Zionism are both borrowed (mangled) and contigent conceptual lens. They order events, providee certitude and erecte handy and all-encompassing demonlogies and dialectics. <br /><br />They are both self dynamic ideas and still attached to the original source. Thus proxy Zionism (i.e. nowadays is now linked far more into the Ulra Nationalism of Revisionism, having moved on from the Socialist Nationalism of the initial founders of Israel and a humanist tradition. So too, anti-Zionism is now completely in bed with the theocratic modernism of Hamas, having rejected the secular modernising nationalism of the PLO's salad days. Both these dapartures coincide with historic defeats for these earlier conceptions, no doubt. But at the same time, Revisionism and Palestinian Islamism of the MB school are essentially articualtions of postures. They are excuses for stasis. <br /><br />During the Fenian period of Irish Republicans, the "Irish" politicians and wider communities in the States were explicit in their attachment to the romantic and structurally steady mode and mythos of insurrentionalist tactics, much to the chargrin of actaul Republicans on the ground.<br /><br />Why would you want a good thing that doesn't really cost you anything to end. For the most ardent of proxy Zionists and anti-Zionists, an end to this tiny little conflict would leave them lost, with no navigation to frightening and sudden events. Better defeat delayed than victory attained. <br /><br />CC<br /><br />"I do know when I read something like this it sounds to me suspiciously close to the classical accusation of "Jew-lover"." <br /><br />Well, we know you are dumb and one eyed. In fact your whole online persona is a uncontainable flood of the same ol' ideological points, articulated like a dull GSCE student trying to reword the textbook for their coursework. Along with a dash of that right wing "truth-telling bluntness" i.e getting to be a bit bigotted for shits and giggles, there's also the complete lack of weight given to the serious accusations you fling around. It's childish. <br /><br />Take Levi for instance. I described him as scum because he has a large and easily assessable history of his evasive and passive agressive bullshit. From this evidence, you can conclude that it's a game to him, a easy pop-up book morality tale, with no "grey zone" nor consequences. <br /><br />You coyly accuse me of propagating anti-Semitic tropes because you suspect it is so. Well, given the tripe you sell fit to put out under your online identity, I suggest your suspecting skills are up to much. Go fuck yourself<br /><br />Levi is the void and someone said something once about engaging with thosesocialrepublicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451193630793715133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-216906756188853622011-07-21T03:48:36.213+01:002011-07-21T03:48:36.213+01:00Anyway, it would have been nice if Waterloo Sunset...<i>Anyway, it would have been nice if Waterloo Sunset and SocialRepublican could have expanded on their comments but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.</i><br /><br />Oh ffs. Ok, Levi. To make this clear in case it happens again. I will frequently disappear from comments threads, often for days. The reason for that is not that I'm "running away from debate" or anything like that. It's because, apparently unlike a lot of people in the blogosphere, I actually have an active social life. And I don't always have the time or motivation to be involved in comment debates. <br /><br />In terms of expanding on my comments, not sure what you need clarification on?<br /><br />My view is that the concentration on a single struggle overseas is a good example of how the conservative left prefers to pontificate from afar as opposed to getting their hands dirty by engaging with class issues at home. And that its politics as intellectual masturbation as opposed to as a guide to trying to make a meaningful change in the world. And that it shows why the left hasn't had any organic links to the class since the 1930's. But I'm sure none of those views comes as a surprise to you.<br /><br />On the blog, I think you're suffering from confirmation bias. Simply put, most posts and links are not to do with Israel, it's just they're the ones you notice. So suggesting it would change the project isn't actually true, it would just focus it. As I said, there's hundreds of places out there where people can argue about Israel/Palestine. And those who focus on it are almost invariably frothing loons. Whichever side of the debate they come from.<br /><br />@ Bob<br /><br /><i> I think SR's position on nationalism is more productive, and arguably all nationalisms are ultimately racist in some sense;</i><br /><br />While that is an element to SR's post, I think you're massively oversimplifying his argument. His comment is a lot more complex than that and I pretty much agree with it in full. And I will note that nobody has really tried to engage properly with any of the arguments within.<br /><br />And you have email.Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-75099498979346671432011-07-20T14:27:45.858+01:002011-07-20T14:27:45.858+01:00Not that it was a "conversation", which ...Not that it was a "conversation", which is actually the main point.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-29448201558826313232011-07-20T14:27:28.093+01:002011-07-20T14:27:28.093+01:00Levi, no one presented me with a dossier of eviden...Levi, no one presented me with a dossier of evidence. That wasn't my point. My point was that racism is in the eye of the beholder, and I don't want lectures from you about who or what is racist. <br /><br />On the righteous thing, I think we went over it all pretty thoroughly in the link that I provided and am not going to go over it yet again. <br /><br />There is an enormous difference between suggesting that blogging on iz/should be severely delimited in order to reduce discussions like these, which nobody but you enjoys, and ending a blog altogether, so I don't really want lectures from you on who is trolling my threads or misrepresenting people<br /><br />I have reached the limit of my tolerance for this. End of conversation.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-75345877700822619762011-07-20T14:19:35.754+01:002011-07-20T14:19:35.754+01:00You could always give the evidence of the racism I...You could always give the evidence of the racism I am accused of without naming the accuser. You could also revisit what I actually said about Mearsheimer since you accused me of saying almost the opposite of what I did say.<br /><br />Also, Waterloo Sunset said, "ban all discussion of Israel/Palestine, outside the very narrow remit that you outline." That would amount to a very different project to this blog.<br /><br />I don't divine a person's interests, I just rephrased my earlier contention that what you say is prejudice based rather than reality based but what I meant was that your sheer lack of consistency points to what you say being based on your perceived interests, that's all.<br /><br />Anyway, it would have been nice if Waterloo Sunset and SocialRepublican could have expanded on their comments but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-74636904414856712462011-07-20T13:39:13.685+01:002011-07-20T13:39:13.685+01:00Levi, I have absolutely no idea what you are talki...Levi, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in most of that last comment. You seem to be manufacturing some very enormous mountains out of very small molehills. I am more than happy for you to think of this as a neoconservative blog about interests, whatever that means. I don't really give a shit how you characterise the blog, my politics or my "interests" which you seem to be able to divine so clearly through the ideological haze of what I publicly "profess".<br /><br />On the e-mails, the reason people e-mail me instead of having the debates here is because you have made the comment threads here toxic and unpleasant and no-one wants to hang out with you, let alone get into endless circular arguments with you. So I'm hardly going to relay their details for you to pick over. My point is I am sick and tired of the constant allegations and counter-allegations.<br /><br />As for "allowing" my "comrades" to make false allegations, I think you will find that the voice that completely dominates my last several threads, i.e. the voice I have most "allowed" to make allegations, true or false, is actually yours.<br /><br />And by the way, talking of false representations, I think you have pretty drastically mis-represented WS.<br /><br />By the way, I don'tbobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-73138829386825286272011-07-20T12:23:50.549+01:002011-07-20T12:23:50.549+01:00"why hang out here?"
There are views ex..."why hang out here?"<br /><br />There are views expressed by Bob and links apparently made with approval that should be challenged. Unfortunately, in the threads, Bob is more than happy to make false allegations against his critics and allow his "comrades" to do the same. This is what makes threads unduly long.<br /><br />A case in point is the recent false allegation by Bob that I said that the expression "righteous Jews" is "perfectly acceptable" when I actually said that it is "patronising" and that "patronising" amounts to "offensive". Bob asks if he should ban himself but he has already suggested ending the blog and Waterloo Sunset's suggestion comes close to making the same recommendation. Alternatively he could quit the bogus allegations (complete with links that disprove the same) or acknowledge that he got it wrong.<br /><br />Another case is for Bob to report that people have emailed him accusing me of racism or of facilitating racism. SocialRepublican may think I am scum for whatever reason but he does point up Noga's racism without actually accusing me of that. So who are my accusers and what evidence supports what they are saying?<br /><br />All of this points up the bind that Bob is in. He wants to appease a whole bunch of rightists whilst using the language of the left. It doesn't work. He can cry "racist" without evidence or definition and he can cry "liar liar pants on fire" but all he does is make the hole deeper.<br /><br />Something Bob could do is blog on a kind of neoconservative basis whereby he simply says what he says and links it openly to interests rather than professed principles. I think this is the problem. He knows principles are nice but he prefers interests. Very few openly blog on the basis of their own perceived self-interest. It could actually be a gap in the market.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-77600474499323115342011-07-20T10:19:24.804+01:002011-07-20T10:19:24.804+01:00I'd prefer not to rise to the baiting either a...I'd prefer not to rise to the baiting either as this back and forth is unbelievably tedious and utterly unproductive. If someone sees this site as a stomping ground for racists, why hang out here? Lots of people have e-mailed me and asked why I hosting Levi and Skid here, as they are either racists or facilitate racism, and meanwhile they and others badger me about CC as a racist. This conversation began with a comment that using the term too liberally makes it meaningless, a position possibly confirmed by this inane argument.<br /><br />I think SR's position on nationalism is more productive, and arguably all nationalisms are ultimately racist in some sense; that obviously includes Palestinian nationalism too. <br /><br />I like the phrase "trolling your own blog". Perhaps I should ban myself.<br /><br />Finally, Will's googling threw up a likely candidate for a flesh counterpart to the virtual Noga of CC, but I'm not sure if it gave an indication of where the school stuff came from, but as I said I am not going to entertain any more comments on that please move on.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-31273753145599571192011-07-20T03:08:29.082+01:002011-07-20T03:08:29.082+01:00On second thought, I think it is better that I don...On second thought, I think it is better that I don't respond to levi's baiting.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-1066670188904950912011-07-20T03:00:35.857+01:002011-07-20T03:00:35.857+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-41326651075994945422011-07-20T00:07:24.317+01:002011-07-20T00:07:24.317+01:00Bob - "Yes indeed we already spoke about this...Bob - "Yes indeed we already spoke about this, when Levi, who throws around the phrase "explicit racist", at least initially tried to say that "righteous Jew" was a perfectly acceptable phrase"<br /><br />Here is the opening section of my first comment (ie, what I initially said) in the thread you link to:<br /><br />"Righteous Jews" is every bit as patronising a label as "righteous gentiles" but Mearsheimer mentioned a third category of Jews (what kind of Churchillian would he be if he didn't?) - who he called the "great ambivalent middle"; like most societies really."<br /><br />In the same thread you tried to take issue with the fact that I had not said that Mearsheimer's use of the expression "righteous Jews" was "offensive" and I said "I don't see why "offensive" is worth saying given that "patronising" is offensive."<br /><br />This is what is meant by trolling your own blog. You've made an allegation and supplied a link as if to prove your allegation and it does no such thing. Au contraire.<br /><br />Re the "explicit racist". Skidders is right, it's Noga. You are simply increasingly tolerant of it. C/f your defence of the new Benny Morris. I think it's another example of the bind you find yourself in. You want to be a sensible centrist but you have to make all sorts of compromises with the dodgiest of characters.<br /><br />Re what you deleted from Will, he pointed out that you could find all that he is supposed to have gleaned from her bank statements from her Normblog profile and other things she had placed in the public domain prior to his mention of those things.<br /><br />CC - it's pretty pointless engaging with you too much but anyone who advocates a specific ethno-religious demographic balance in a country would count as a racist as far as I (and many many others) are concerned. I do not advocate for an Arab majority country or against one. I think it is racist to advocate for or against such a thing. I've also told you before that I do not think all supporters of the two state solution are racists.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-48226533429317989412011-07-19T16:50:58.280+01:002011-07-19T16:50:58.280+01:00skidmarx probably shares levi's unique formula...skidmarx probably shares levi's unique formulation of what makes a racist, and that is any Jew who does not believe that Israel, as a JEWISH STATE, should be cancelled and an Arab state with a Jewish minority be instituted instead. I regard this in the same light I regard anyone on the American hard-core Right who cries racism every time he or she considers affirmative action. <br /><br />I don't have the energy to begin to pick apart the hypocrisy and merciless meanness of such an absence of any real sense of historical justice.The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-20342404815415160922011-07-19T14:04:56.357+01:002011-07-19T14:04:56.357+01:00If you consider us to be explicit racists
I think ...<i>If you consider us to be explicit racists</i><br />I think Levi says "Sorry to interrupt a cosy chat between Bob and an explicit racist", he's not calling Bob an explicit racist, though he might believe that you show a lack of concern or a complicity with the racism Noga explicitly expresses. Or Jogo.skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-77834729322885114782011-07-19T13:23:43.503+01:002011-07-19T13:23:43.503+01:00"Who are these "non-Jewish anti-Zionists...<i>"Who are these "non-Jewish anti-Zionists" who "often berate the great mass of non-Israel-hating Jews for not sticking to the true, authentic Jewishness"?</i> The people I was actually thinking of, by the way, were not so much articles I have read, but people I know: my colleague who gave me Shlomo Sand's book as a gift, my former colleague who listens to klezmer and reads IB Singer, but when it comes to real, contemporary, ordinary Jews, aren't so positive.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-81251164168853016082011-07-19T12:48:43.820+01:002011-07-19T12:48:43.820+01:00Yes indeed we already spoke about this, when Levi,...Yes indeed we already spoke about this, when Levi, who throws around the phrase "explicit racist", at least initially tried to say that "righteous Jew" was a perfectly acceptable phrase http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=10131050&postID=710840999686676041<br /><br />What draws critics into these discussions? If you consider us to be explicit racists, why are you hanging out here? <br /><br />Will's comments that I deleted didn't show what you say. I deleted them very hastily at the weekend when I was away from my computer, as they seemed to me to contain what might be personal information on someone who has clearly stated a preference for some privacy. I thought that they went and sat in the spam box so I could review them later, but I used the wrong kind of delete and can't work out how to retrieve them (Wordpress is so much better than Blogger on this sort of thing) but I'd prefer to err on the side of caution. I think I will just delete all comments on that topic from now on, because the other alternative is pre-moderated comments.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-65660285163197172922011-07-19T12:35:04.199+01:002011-07-19T12:35:04.199+01:00"Who are these "non-Jewish anti-Zionists..."Who are these "non-Jewish anti-Zionists" who "often berate the great mass of non-Israel-hating Jews for not sticking to the true, authentic Jewishness".<br />________________<br /><br />Example:<br /><br /><br />"Righteous Jews have a powerful attachment to core liberal values. They believe that individual rights matter greatly and that they are universal, which means they apply equally to Jews and Palestinians. They could never support an apartheid Israel. They also understand that the Palestinians paid an enormous price to make it possible to create Israel in 1948. Moreover, they recognize the pain and suffering that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories since 1967. Finally, most righteous Jews believe that the Palestinians deserve a viable state of their own, just as the Jews deserve their own state. In essence, they believe that self-determination applies to Palestinians as well as Jews, and that the two-state solution is the best way to achieve that end. Some righteous Jews, however, favor a democratic bi-national state over the two-state solution.<br /><br />To give you a better sense of what I mean when I use the term righteous Jews, let me give you some names of people and organizations that I would put in this category. The list would include Noam Chomsky, Roger Cohen, Richard Falk, Norman Finkelstein, Tony Judt, Tony Karon, Naomi Klein, MJ Rosenberg, Sara Roy, and Philip Weiss of Mondoweiss fame, just to name a few. I would also include many of the individuals associated with J Street and everyone associated with Jewish Voice for Peace, as well as distinguished international figures such as Judge Richard Goldstone. Furthermore, I would apply the label to the many American Jews who work for different human rights organizations, such as Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch."<br /><br />http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/d/ContentDetails/i/10418The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-77497287886871858232011-07-19T10:00:58.209+01:002011-07-19T10:00:58.209+01:00Sorry to interrupt a cosy chat between Bob and an ...Sorry to interrupt a cosy chat between Bob and an explicit racist but this is precisely the kind of thing that draws critics into these discussions. Who are these "non-Jewish anti-Zionists" who "often berate the great mass of non-Israel-hating Jews for not sticking to the true, authentic Jewishness".<br /><br />BTW, since Bob has deleted Will's comments which clearly explained that it was easy to find info about Noga, where she lives and what kind of school her children attend/ed without resorting to cyber-terrorism can we just note that Will has shown that he didn't say anything that couldn't be found via google? It's only fair.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-34704839382154209042011-07-19T09:32:01.533+01:002011-07-19T09:32:01.533+01:00CC - I tend to agree. I have also seen how non-Jew...CC - I tend to agree. I have also seen how non-Jewish anti-Zionists often berate the great mass of non-Israel-hating Jews for not sticking to the true, authentic Jewishness (i.e. the nice sepia-tinted one where Jews were suffering scholars), and how much they love the exceptional Jews who conform to the stereotype.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-53771687321531926232011-07-18T16:05:33.452+01:002011-07-18T16:05:33.452+01:00"I prefer philosemites to antisemites, but I ..."I prefer philosemites to antisemites, but I don't really like philosemites either. "<br /><br />The greatest Philosimites in history turned out to be the worst kind of antisemites. <br /><br />A Jewish author who lives in Montreal but grew up in Chicago (David Homel) once wrote how his father had warned him to watch out for the philosemite even more carefully than the antisemite. I think we see many examples of this advice being very sound, for the greatest antisemites from the left today keep lamenting how Jews have drifted away from their beautiful religion and ethics by supporting Israel. Those are the philosemites who know exactly what and how Judaism is, and consider themselves to be speaking out of love for the true Jew, who is nothing like the Israel-loving Jew who is the bad Jew. <br /><br />To pre-empt any complaints let me state right away that I regard the philosemite on the right as no less opportunistic and cynical in his/her avowals of love for Jews (Glenn Beck comes to mind).The Contentious Centristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07370528817706233156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-71259279378924326822011-07-18T15:23:38.043+01:002011-07-18T15:23:38.043+01:00I am a bit mystified why all the people who see th...I am a bit mystified why all the people who see this site as disgusting, right-wing etc spend so much time hanging out here. They should feel free to move on to where they find the company more convivial.<br /><br />On Chas Newkey Burden, I only occasionally look at his blog, so can't comment, but I don't think what SR said about him as a "fanboy" is the same as antisemitic allegations about "Jew-lovers". I prefer philosemites to antisemites, but I don't really like philosemites either. Loving all Jews is only slightly less racist than hating all Jews, even if the effects are more benignbobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.com