tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post9099812076659953952..comments2024-03-01T08:19:54.547+00:00Comments on BobFromBrockley: Snipsbobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-30852882200359446822011-07-14T14:51:57.549+01:002011-07-14T14:51:57.549+01:00NATO IS THE FRAMEWORK FOR AN ALLIANCE DESIGNED TO ...<a href="http://youtu.be/b6fSD0Cq3Bw/" rel="nofollow">NATO IS THE FRAMEWORK FOR AN ALLIANCE DESIGNED TO PREVENT AGGRESSION OR TO REPEL IT, SHOULD IT OCCUR. IT IS DETERMINED TO SAFEGUARD FREEDOM, COMMON HERITAGE AND CIVILIZATION. FOUNDED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF DEMOCRACY, LIBERTY AND THE RULE OF LAW. IT PROVIDES FOR CONTINUOUS COOPERATION AND CONSULTATION IN POLITICAL, ECONOMIC AND OTHER MILITARY FIELDS. IT IS RESOLVED TO UNITE ITS EFFORTS FOR COLLECTIVE DEFENCE AND SEEK TO PROMOTE STABILITY, SECURITY AND WELL-BEING IN THE NORTH ATLANTIC AREA. IT IS OF INDEFINITE DURATION. WASHINGTON DC 1949<br /></a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-58709870946977422642011-03-20T01:01:47.040+00:002011-03-20T01:01:47.040+00:00oi!
the word native is purely innocent. israel cl...<i>oi</i>!<br /><br />the word native is purely innocent. israel clearly operates a system that is for people from outside of the region at the expense of those from inside it. and it is maintained by imperialist interests, not out of the goodness of US and EU hearts, that is, it is a colonial settler state based on ethnic cleansing and segregationist laws.<br /><br />i have never suggested that jews should not be in Palestine and you know I haven't and i am not a complete novice when it comes to histories of jewish communities. this is a blog thread, not a masters in history. (remember what i said about "pious intonation"?) <br /><br />whether jews have been in palestine since time immemorial is irrelevant to the segregationist system that israel operates because they are eligible for citizenship under the law of return whereas native non-jews are not. that is native jews have the same legal status as jews from, eg, the usa, which is superior, by law, to the status of native non-jews and at any given time, jews from abroad like, say, me have more resources directed at their settlement than jews living in israel/palestine already. it is a rolling programme of colonial settlement and ethnic cleansing unlike anywhere else on the planet.<br /><br />ethnic cleansing is not about how many of the "demographic threat" remain but how many have been forced to leave. it is not "very unsuccessful" because more palestinians from within the pre67 boundary have been forced to live outside it than live within it. and many of the arabs inside israel are there as refugees or what Israel calls, "present absentees" and most of the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank are refugees, ie victims of ethnic cleansing. and of course there are millions of Palestinians forced to live outside palestine altogether. the fact that many remain throughout palestine is what makes the campaign on-going and contributes to a state of tension which maintains the cohesion of israeli jewish society.<br /><br />regarding the palestinian arabs claim on the land, it looks like you are now trying to justify their ethnic cleansing by reference to what people from pre-israel palestine were called and how long they were called it for. i presume you didn't mean that because it's one of the more ludicrous of zionist arguments.<br /><br />the point is that on the eve of zionist settlement, palestine had a fairly stable population that was predominantly Arab and Muslim and the granting of superior settlement rights to Jews and the ethnic cleansing of most Arabs has changed that situation in a way that has caused a deliberate humanitarian disaster to the Palestinian Arabs and destroyed some of the oldest Jewish communities in the world. it's caused a fair number of wars too and it has brought the superpowers (as were) to the brink of nuclear war and could well do so again, not that superpowers are the only states with nuclear arsenals.<br /><br />also, it seems to have established a pervasive culture of intellectual dishonesty and bullying among many jews which i find very sad but that's probably worth a post in itself.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-37701847951230091612011-03-19T22:29:11.330+00:002011-03-19T22:29:11.330+00:00"the existence of Israel is predicated on a r..."the existence of Israel is predicated on a recent, current and on-going campaign of it." <br /><br />A very unsuccessful campaign, that has resulted in many, many more Arab citizens in Israel now than there were Arab residents in the same territories in 1947 (and including PA territories, I think about five times as many as there were in 1947).bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-45731384732008276572011-03-19T22:18:19.822+00:002011-03-19T22:18:19.822+00:00"The Tibetans fighting under the flag of a me..."The Tibetans fighting under the flag of a medieval theocracy doesn't prevent them from being worthy of support." True, but it does suggest that the regime they'd replace the Chinese one with would be deeply reactionary.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-53508620013873347802011-03-19T22:17:01.547+00:002011-03-19T22:17:01.547+00:00Flags of the monarchy: no one is making a big deal...Flags of the monarchy: no one is making a big deal of it. The interviewer asked if the flags of the monarchy meant there is a desire to go back to pre-Gaddafi royal rule. An interesting question no?bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-5134399175529955082011-03-19T22:15:54.298+00:002011-03-19T22:15:54.298+00:00Getting caught in the spam folder: it's the hy...Getting caught in the spam folder: it's the hyperlinks. <br /><br />Nativism: the use of the word "native" does not always and alone count as nativist discourse, but it lurks there. There is a certain white British politics of resentment that says "natives are second class citizens in their own country". Brian True-May has been talking about Midsomer as the last bastion of Englishness. Nick Griffin uses the word "indigenous" and tries to get English people classified as an ethnic minority under the race relations act. This is nativist discourse.<br /><br />There is a Zionist narrative that Jews have lived in Eretz Israel since time immemorial. And there is a Palestinian narrative that claims the same thing. These are nativist discourses. They are all bullshit. <br /><br />When you talk about all Israelis as people from elsewhere, you erase enormous amounts of history, on so many levels. So where do they belong? My left-wing Israeli friend, so full of hate for the way her "native" country is going tried to apply for Polish citizenship, as that's where her grandparents came from. She was, of course, refused. Where are they supposed to go back to?<br /><br />And how deep is the Palestinian claim on the land? Is it really since time immemorial as you claim? The word Palestinian was used to describe Jews just a few decades ago. And how many years in a land qualifies as "native", and how many years away loses the qualification? The whole premise is totally dodgy in my view.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-63812360394186454672011-03-19T17:03:43.369+00:002011-03-19T17:03:43.369+00:00contn.
Fair enough, but would also equally resist...contn.<br /><br /><i>Fair enough, but would also equally resist the same happening to people abroad? If so, would you apply that same policy to Palestine/Israel with equal passion?</i><br /><br />I don't know. No one, including you, has shown me a current comparable situation though South Africa and Rhodesia were similar and I felt pretty much the same about them. <br /><br />If anything, the Palestinian cause has been neglected and even opposed by people who have got so worked up about ethnic cleansing in other places that they have advocated and gone to war against the perpetrators. By the way, "why pick on Israel" is the <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html" rel="nofollow">"you suck" argument</a>.<br /><br /><i>many anti-Zionists have essentially rejected class politics.</i><br /><br />Many anti-zionists never had any class politics in the first place because the demand for the right of return and the replacement of a zionist Israel with a democratic secular state is a simple liberal demand much like anti-apartheid with the added urgency that zionism seeks to eradicate the native non-Jewish presence and is using increasingly violent means to do it. <br /><br />But to ignore the class interests involved in support for Israel is pernicious and goes to the heart of the so-called Israel lobby or even Jewish power theses.<br /><br />And of course the class interests involved have hardly been touched on because you are so in denial about the basic nature of Israel without considering why so much western power is deployed in the support of this serial human rights abuser. It's true that other serial human rights abusers get western support but none get as much in money terms as Israel, none are touted as the "only democracy in" their region, none get the media support and none have lobbyists, politicians and even academics trying to get rules and even laws made as to what you can or can't (mostly can't) say about the state in question.<br /><br />But I'm done here. I think you're a bit of a joker.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-85824425170008575122011-03-19T17:03:22.059+00:002011-03-19T17:03:22.059+00:00Right, this will be my last go at this because you...Right, this will be my last go at this because your arguments are just ludicrous. In fact I'm not even sure you're serious.<br /><br /><i>why focus on "Palestinian rights" as opposed to a more general no borders argument? To do the former obfuscates the validity of the latter.</i><br /><br />Because the Palestinians are being denied the most basic of human rights simply because the State of Israel insists on existing as a state for Jews. I don't support ethnic cleansing in any circumstances but the existence of Israel is predicated on a recent, current and on-going campaign of it. No borders is nice and I am not in favour of immigration controls but not letting people from abroad into a place is not the same as going into a place and ridding it of most of its existing population. If people from outside of a country are not allowed into it that may compound the instability of their lives but it does not cause it. Removing people from the land they have inhabited since time immemorial is inherently violent and it is the cause of instability in people's lives.<br /><br /><i>It's a bogstandard liberal approach to the issue of immigration, no?</i><br /><br />No and thrice no! The liberal approach to immigration is to have little or no control on people from outside a country coming into it. It is certainly not about removing communities from a country and refusing to allow them to return.<br /><br /><i>Anywhere else? Native Americans in the US. Australian Aborigines. Actually, if you're choosing to use the term, I don't see how either the US or the Australia can not fit into the category of "colonial settler states". And that's without getting into the complex issue of whether we have corporations acting as de facto governments in places like Nigeria.</i><br /><br />I find it quite chilling that there are people who argue quite casually that Israel is only <i>doing</i> what America and Australia <i>did</i>. That's my point. Where are the people that come from America and Australia who are being denied the right of return? The difference is the recentness and the currentness of Israel's ethnic cleansing.<br /><br />Yes corporate power in third world countries is criminal but Nigeria's existence is not predicated on the abuse of corporate power.<br /><br />contdlevi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-24269572271508301162011-03-19T16:17:52.986+00:002011-03-19T16:17:52.986+00:00Bob - another of my comments does seem to have dis...Bob - another of my comments does seem to have disappeared, again one with a polite reference to what WS had said about Libya, perhaps your spam filter is most contrary?<br />In case that re-appears I'll just dwell briefly on this last comment of WS:<br /><i> I don't believe that the nature of the class war is qualitatively different in Israel/Palestine than elsewhere. Nor do I accept that the need for unity between Israelis and Palestinians, on class as opposed to nationalist lines, is any less crucial.</i><br />Now I think it is you who is caricaturing, and ignoring whether there is national oppression that divides the communities in a material way. Also on Aboriginal populations, if you aren't planning on starting (and having some prospect of success in) campaigns to have those settler populations allow much of the land they occupy go back to the First nations, it isn't really much of a comparison. There are a lot of ways of saying "I want to ignore the dispossession of the Palestinian nation and the active support of much of the Jewish working class in Israel for that", but this isn't the prettiest. [If you consider that I'm massively distorting your position, please say so]skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-22408380860447581562011-03-19T13:12:35.292+00:002011-03-19T13:12:35.292+00:00@ Levi
I am not saying that Palestinian Arabs sho...@ Levi<br /><br /><i>I am not saying that Palestinian Arabs should have more right to Palestine than Jews who live there now and I'm not sure how anyone could interpret anything I have said as meaning that.</i><br /><br />Fair enough. In that case though, why focus on "Palestinian rights" as opposed to a more general no borders argument? To do the former obfuscates the validity of the latter.<br /><br /><i>I am saying that they should have equal rights whereas, Meretz and Avnery are saying that Arabs from Israel should have no right to return to Israel but that Jews from abroad should have the right to live there.</i><br /><br />That's not unique to them though. It's a bogstandard liberal approach to the issue of immigration, no?<br /><br /><i>If you think there is, then tell me the people from the UK (or anywhere else) who equate to the Palestinians.</i><br /><br />Anywhere else? Native Americans in the US. Australian Aborigines. Actually, if you're choosing to use the term, I don't see how either the US or the Australia can not fit into the category of "colonial settler states". And that's without getting into the complex issue of whether we have corporations acting as de facto governments in places like Nigeria.<br /><br /><i>I would resist the idea that people from abroad have a right to expel me, deny me the right of return and bar any remaining natives from 93% or any percentage of the surface area. </i><br /><br />Fair enough, but would also equally resist the same happening to people abroad? If so, would you apply that same policy to Palestine/Israel with equal passion?<br /><br /><i>Or maybe you are saying that whilst "Israel sucks", "everything sucks" in which case, why value anything?</i><br /><br />Cute though that caricature is, it actually mixes up two entirely different positions. The "everything sucks" position (which is, in essence, my argument) is not to suggest that's ok because of some kind of Social Darwinist imperative. In my case, to pare it down to basics, it's a recognition that neoliberal capitalism is currently winning globally. And to reverse that argument, can you tell us which ruling classes you think are worth valuing? I think that's probably at the core of our differences here. I don't believe that the nature of the class war is qualitatively different in Israel/Palestine than elsewhere. Nor do I accept that the need for unity between Israelis and Palestinians, on class as opposed to nationalist lines, is any less crucial.<br /><br />In fact, the dismissal of the "everything sucks" argument is a very good illustrator of my argument that many anti-Zionists have essentially rejected class politics.Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-74655477827560627762011-03-19T11:38:48.189+00:002011-03-19T11:38:48.189+00:00"flag of the monarchy"
I don't see ..."flag of the monarchy" <br />I don't see why this is relevant. The Tibetans fighting under the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Tibet.svg" rel="nofollow">flag</a> of a medieval theocracy doesn't prevent them from being worthy of support. Is this perhaps more a problem for those with Decentish inclinations who don't have the position of Trotsky support slaveowner Haile Selassie versus the Italians to fall back on.<br />By the way I think there is a lot to be said for what Waterloo Sunset says on the other thread: that differences over the NFZ might be best considered less important than shared support for the Libyan revolution.<br /><br />Levi9909 - the only two comments I can remember making on this thread recently are the two just above yours, one on Normblog and one on Third Campism (or the lack of it).skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-21966736106487387602011-03-19T11:05:13.974+00:002011-03-19T11:05:13.974+00:00Fine but you know better than to pretend that use ...Fine but you know better than to pretend that use of the word "native" amounts to nativist discourse as surely as you know that the existence of Germany and Turkey is not predicated on the recent, current and on-going displacement of native people from the territories they control.<br /><br />Israel still stands out for existing on the basis that people from outside have more right to live there than people who are from there and of course is has the backing of the most powerful forces on the planet for its racist rule. In his presidential campaign, Obama told AIPAC that "Israel must remain Jewish".<br /><br />The reason I persist in pointing these things out, apart from countering bogus allegations of "nativist discourse", is that those who claim that Israel's situation is merely the same as other citizenship/immigration issues, are raising the spectre of antisemitism by claiming that Israel is unfairly singled out and then pretending to wonder why. <br /><br />Israel singles itself out and is singled out by imperialism for special treatment.<br /><br />As Israel privileges Jews, so the so-called international community privileges Israel and there is no other comparable state.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-89871940309378987112011-03-19T10:24:06.712+00:002011-03-19T10:24:06.712+00:001. On azzajooizm- My views on that aer complicated...1. On azzajooizm- My views on that aer complicated, too complicated for now, but I was thinking as much of my two Irish Catholic great-grandparents (I only recently learned that my grandather served in Mandate Palestine at the time of the first uprising because he was meant to serve in Ireland but tehy didn't want to send Irish people there) and of my mother not being a British citizen, rather than anything specifically Jewish.<br /><br />At any rate, suspicion of nativist political discourse is a valid position regardless of my immigration status.<br /><br />2. On Israel as evil - I don't reject the idea of evil, although I probably reject the idea of a particular state as inherently evil. What I was referring to before was the way the anti-Zionist cultural code sees Israel through a unique moral frame, as a pariah state, uniquely evil in the world, and therefore worth singling out when huge numbers of other states have features (some the same, some different) that would in my view qualify them just as much. <br /><br />3. on teh apartheid state thing - we're going over the same ground nw. I am opposed to all forms of ethnic nationality, including Israel's (and including the German law that gives right of return to ethnic Germans and makes it hard for reisdent "Turks", or the patriality thing that makes British immigration law racist), and am in favour of the right of return for Palestinians and Jews to israel/Palestine, and ultimately in favour of open borders, so you're pushing the wrong door. As I've said already.<br /><br />And I utterly reject the ahistorical "colonial settler state" label.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-14330790304613491342011-03-18T23:59:29.150+00:002011-03-18T23:59:29.150+00:00Bob - I've only just seen your last comment. ...Bob - I've only just seen your last comment. We'll park for the mo' that you're raising an "azzajew" argument, so despised by that other ex-marzist, Norman Geras. <br /><br />I am not arguing for an ethno-religious hierarchy of rights, I am arguing against it. The idea that a state that stops people coming from outside is the same as people from outside throwing out the people already there is preposterous and for you to use your third generation Britness (ie Jewishness) to offer intellectual protection to invading ethnic cleansers is at best ridiculous. <br /><br />Re the "azza3GUK" - me too and I was raised on my parents telling me that we mustn't support apartheid because we're Jews, we had to support MLK because we're Jews, we had to support Ugandan Asians too for the same reason. It was a habit of mind. They didn't tell me to listen out for certain key words that I can then lift out of their context to confound people I debate with so that Jews can top an ethno-religious hierarchy whilst accusing their critics, opponents and their victims of racism. And there really was violent antisemitism back then in the 1960s and 70s on the way to school and at school, and there was even a no-go area for Jews near where my mother still lives.<br /><br />We all have backgrounds and experiences to inform our views and behaviours but we still have to make a case for where we stand without reference to our own personal backgrounds and without misrepresenting the position of our opponents.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-25249856238539300162011-03-18T23:20:47.410+00:002011-03-18T23:20:47.410+00:00Re evil, I appreciated what Bob had to say about t...Re evil, I appreciated what Bob had to say about that but I had thought that he used the word "evil" to describe anti-zionist positions on Israel as if to overstate their case or put an obscurantist spin on it. I mean Bob has referred to me positing Israel as a "unique evil". I assumed that he was stressing the word "evil" because he couldn't possibly be arguing against the idea of Israel's uniqueness. Maybe I was wrong or maybe Bob is inconsistent in his use of the word "evil".<br /><br />Re your idea that all states are apartheid states if Israel is one. It's bogus and avoids the issues of ethnic cleansing and internal segregation together with internal ethnic cleansing in Israel. But then calling Israel an apartheid state, which I rarely do, may obscure more than it reveals.<br /><br />Much of what you say is like saying that me not letting you into my house is the same as me coming to your house, throwing you out and then moving myself in. The latter case involves far more violence than the former and it denies you any right to stability in your life.<br /><br />I am not saying that Palestinian Arabs should have more right to Palestine than Jews who live there now and I'm not sure how anyone could interpret anything I have said as meaning that. I am saying that they should have equal rights whereas, Meretz and Avnery are saying that Arabs from Israel should have no right to return to Israel but that Jews from abroad should have the right to live there.<br /><br />Also, the situation in Israel is that there are many laws that make reference to rights to be enjoyed by people entitled to citizenship under the Law of Return. This excludes the native non-Jewish population but, of course, includes native Jews and Jews of the rest of the world, together with their immediate descendants and dependents. So the racism is not just in the citizenship law. The citizenship law is used to revisit the racism on its victims every day.<br /><br />So your argument comparing the UK to Israel is simply wrong. There is no equivalent in the UK or anywhere else of the Palestinian situation vis a vis the State of Israel. If you think there is, then tell me the people from the UK (or anywhere else) who equate to the Palestinians.<br /><br />Anyway, I do not believe that UK natives (ie people born and/or raised in the UK) have or should have more right to the UK than people from abroad. <br /><br />I would resist the idea that people from abroad have a right to expel me, deny me the right of return and bar any remaining natives from 93% or any percentage of the surface area. <br /><br />The situation now is that no one from the UK is barred from the UK and once people are granted citizenship they are equal under the law to everyone else irrespective of ethnicity or religion. Israel, on the other hand, has formal structures of segregation where there are rights for Jews that are denied to expelled Arabs and Arabs who still live there and Israel's existence is defined by and predicated on these things, the UK's is not.<br /><br />If you are saying that Israel is not a colonial settler state, like no other extant state, then you would have to argue that there has never been such a thing as a colonial settler state. Or maybe you are saying that whilst "Israel sucks", <a href="http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html" rel="nofollow">"everything sucks"</a> in which case, why value anything?levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-88663742282404730442011-03-18T21:18:57.186+00:002011-03-18T21:18:57.186+00:00@waterloo
Re Libya:
I don't know enough about...@waterloo<br /><br />Re <b>Libya</b>:<br />I don't know enough about Libya to know about the flag's connotations - I'd be v interested. <br /><br />On the councils, probably both reasons - doesn't fit the agenda, plus they don't have access to the ground or knowledge of the background. Spontaneous formation of councils (shuras as they're called in some countries) seem to have been a feature of revolutions across the Islamic world, from Iran 1979 to Iraq 1993 to Egypt and Libya 2011.<br /><br />Re <b>apartheid states</b>: <br /><br />I've also clocked the dodgy repeated use of the word "native" to falsely claim Israel's exceptionalness. My family are only "native" to these shores a couple of generations in about a quarter of my great-grandparents' lines, so I'm suspicious of the word. <br /><br />There was quite a good article in a recentish Shift magazine on the similarity between the BNP and some Third Worldist indigneous rights types in this regard.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-74124253789786198702011-03-18T20:40:28.836+00:002011-03-18T20:40:28.836+00:00@ Levi
On language, terms like "evil" a...@ Levi<br /><br />On language, terms like "evil" are no longer used in a theological way. Language changes over time. It strikes me as overly precious to refuse to use language that is now entirely commonplace; separating yourself from the class by insisting on different usage of language is a really good way to find yourself seen as a strange little subculture. (See also the recurring debate on swearing).<br /><br /><i>Briefly, I believe Meretz and Uri Avnery are racist because they believe that Jews from anywhere should have more right to most of Palestine than the native non-Jewish population. If it was simply about the tag zionism or where they are in the zionist family I'd say the Magnes Zionist is racist but I don't.</i><br /><br />We're back into the "all states are apartheid states" issue again. Because there's no state in the world that doesn't operate a level of exclusion in its immigration politics.<br /><br />Obviously, it's possible to fight against that from a "no borders" perspective. But, in that case, I don't see how the issue of "native" versus "from anywhere" is at all relevant.<br /><br />Unless we're going to argue that the "indigenous" population of the UK "should have more right" to the UK, which isn't an argument that's generally seen as a good thing on the left.Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-50709764456983345782011-03-18T20:21:54.736+00:002011-03-18T20:21:54.736+00:00@ Bob
José Antonio Gutiérrez D in the interview a...@ Bob<br /><br /><i>José Antonio Gutiérrez D in the interview at Libcom (thanks WS) talks of the "flag of the monarchy" which doesn't seem right to me.</i><br /><br />I have to admit, I really don't know enough about Libya to pass judgement on that particular point; do you know if it has those connotations over there, even if it's also been used in a different context?<br /><br /><i>Mazen Kamalmaz talks about the people's committees, the local spontaneous constituent expressions of direct democracy in the liberated areas. We have heard close to zero about these in the Western press,</i><br /><br />That's not surprising, I'd suggest. The same is true of Egypt and Argentina, when it was happening there. I'm not sure whether to see that as a deliberate ideological position or to apply Hanlon's Razor; I suspect a lot of journalists may not have the knowledge base to even understand those structures.<br /><br /><i>and I would be curious if anyone knows whether any or all of them endorse the Tranistional Council and/or if any of them have called for or against a No Fly Zone or other forms of intervention. </i><br /><br />I would too. From what I can tell, at the moment, people are mostly just finding suitable Libyan sources to substantiate their already held positions.Waterloo Sunsethttp://everybodyhatesatourist.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-36771990575387343182011-03-18T17:26:29.917+00:002011-03-18T17:26:29.917+00:00Oh Noga - I didn't see you there. Arab states...Oh Noga - I didn't see you there. Arab states are not the same as Arab countries. Some say, eg, that Palestine is an Arab country but it is not a state.<br /><br />Could you please provide a list of all the states that you are claiming are Arab states?<br /><br />I don't expect you to acknowledge that Gabriel clearly accepting the humanity of the family killed in Itamar does not amount to dehumanising but if you provide a list of the states you are saying are Arab states then we can all help you count then together. I suspect moddy has thoroughly checked this one and even he can't support you but submit the list and we'll see.<br /><br />Bob - a comment from Skidmarx has been emailed to me but I can't see it here.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-22686863696011275252011-03-18T17:13:10.101+00:002011-03-18T17:13:10.101+00:00Actually moddy it's you that's wasting you...Actually moddy it's you that's wasting your breath and you don't give bob enough credit for his powers of persuasion.<br /><br />Bob has given me much food for thought and this blog seems to tolerate a wide range of views without becoming infested with abusive comments that don't deal with issues.<br /><br />Also, even if it was true that bob can't sway me, he can persuade others of his point of view by discussing issues with me. you couldn't persuade anyone of anything with your attitude.<br /><br />Bob has explained his take on "evil" which I accept and he has made a strong case for considering certain of the settlers to be beyond the pale. and he even managed to show that one can't actually agree entirely with the Bilin position and with Gabriel's which I hadn't noticed.<br /><br />Quite honestly I think all that stuff is so over your head you just rail against me because you can't participate.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-61574561203689451902011-03-18T17:10:13.961+00:002011-03-18T17:10:13.961+00:00Relevant.
Not very. Norm elides from "they bl...<a href="http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2011/03/from-the-letters-pages-to-itamar.html" rel="nofollow"><i>Relevant</i></a>.<br />Not very. Norm elides from "they blame the occupation for the murders" to "they advocate the murder of children". Isn't that sort of accusation some sort of <a href="http://engageonline.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/when-i-say-israelis-i-don%E2%80%99t-mean-jews-and-when-i-say-jews-i-mean-israelis/" rel="nofollow">bad trope</a>?<br />I find there is a lot of rubbish on Normblog recently, including a guest post on the Irish Left and the election which failed to mention the United Left or Sinn Fein. Tunnel vision seems to be setting in.skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-46854222388095067162011-03-18T17:00:18.628+00:002011-03-18T17:00:18.628+00:00the Neither Washington Nor Moscow slogan and the s...<i>the Neither Washington Nor Moscow slogan and the state capitalist theory of the USSR (two key ingredients of the SWP's Unique Selling Points in the pre-1989 period) are both clearly part of a broader thirdist kind of approach.</i><br />No, and that's where I'd take issue too with Matgamna too, NWNM was part of an ongoing anti-imperialist approach, what he says about China shows the divergence between his Third Campism and the state caps: he judges it on how "barbarous" China is considered to be, Cliff and co. on whether it represents an imperial or anti-imperial force (in its external relations).<br />So expecting a shift from one position to another because of a misunderstanding of what state cap theory means to its adherents is likely to be unfulfilled, except as it coincides with an actual (or at least perceived by them) shift in the imperial balance.skidmarxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-38596721881295884122011-03-18T15:18:33.669+00:002011-03-18T15:18:33.669+00:00Bob,
Why do you give any credence to Elf & co...Bob,<br /><br />Why do you give any credence to Elf & co?<br /><br />Surely to have any meaningful exchange there has to be common ground? Either linguistically, politically or some shared ideas?<br /><br />You know full well that Elf holds you and your views in utter contempt, he only pops over here to wind you up.<br /><br />You would be far better advised saving your energies other things, no matter what you say to him, etc he 1) won't understand 2) will deliberately misinterpret 3) put the worst possible interpretation on your views 4) treat you with contempt, etc etc<br /><br />So there's no common ground for any meaningful discussion.<br /><br />You are wasting your breath.ModernityBloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06354254639321208955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-72469977353595739322011-03-18T14:56:54.012+00:002011-03-18T14:56:54.012+00:00I made too big a deal of Gabriel being dishonest; ...I made too big a deal of Gabriel being dishonest; that's not my issue with what he wrote. Maybe he wasn't. It was the "shedding a tear" stuff and the "My world has lost little" stuff that offends me. <br /><br />I also read on to the end of his post, and his defence of Gurwitz from the ridiculous charge of "Jewish-centrism" seems broadly sensible, as does the criticism of him for using the phrase "going native", which I agree is racist in this context. <br /><br />Btw, I disagree with the Bilin committee when they say this: "These policies created the circumstances for committing these heinous actions. Therefore, we believe that the Israeli government bears full responsibility for the occupation and its consequences." This kind of devolving of responsibility away from perpetrators of actions and on to bigger structures is flawed. There's a chicken and egg thing, because a supporter of Israel could simply say that Palestinian terrorists bear the full responsibility for what the IDF does because the IDF's actions are the response to rockets and suicide bombs. In my view, the responsibility always ultimately lies with whoever commits a crime. (We had this argument before, Gabriel and I, over Pol Pot's genocide, which he basically holds America responsible for, to gorssly simplify our argument.)<br /><br />On the other hand, the order of a "yes, but" statement makes a big difference. "Killing is wrong, but we hate them so we won't shed a tear" (G Ash) is a morally wrong response. "We hate them, but killing is wrong and so we condemn it" (the Bilin Popular Committee) is a morally right response. Btw, using quote marks to indicate paraphrase rather than direct quotation, thus risking hoisting myself on my own petard.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15439386754907203808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10131050.post-14858530102174990292011-03-18T14:29:01.915+00:002011-03-18T14:29:01.915+00:00Reider - "Some individuals pointed out that t...Reider - "Some individuals pointed out that the murders were horrible, but: The parents should have been more careful in where they chose to live / Israel and the Occupation is really to blame / what about Israel killing Palestinian children / the settlers are not really civilians, as they serve as instruments of land-grab and military control."<br /><br />Bilin Popular Committee Against the Wall - "Palestinian Popular Committees Against the Wall and Israeli Settlements express their deep sadness and sorrow concerning the killing incident in the Itamar colonial settlement. The Popular Committees view the killing incidence as a part of the escalation generated and mobilized by the policies and actions of the Israeli occupation. These policies created the circumstances for committing these heinous actions. Therefore, we believe that the Israeli government bears full responsibility for the occupation and its consequences. The Popular Committees are committed to nonviolence and civil disobedience in our struggle to end the Israeli occupation. Though the crime was committed on colonized land, we see the killing of children as a despicable crime regardless of their nationality, gender, color, race or religion." <br /><br />There are differences but the similarities seem to outweigh them.<br /><br />Anyway, back to Gabriel. You can always pay us a visit and ask him. He might have read the article in Hebrew for all I know.levi9909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10553481056544494411noreply@blogger.com